Sauron and the Istari
Jun. 14th, 2022 10:26 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
I got this question on my tumblr this morning

Thanks for the question anon, I'm a little touched you care enough about my answer to ask XD
So I finished Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth before I left home earlier this month, and there was a chapter on the Istari! (I have a few more Saruman quotes to post later because it delved a lot into his relationships with Gandalf and Sauron.)
We know that Sauron was greatly weakened at the end of the Second Age, which culminated in the War of the Last Alliance. The only thing that seems to have spared him genuine death is the fact that the One Ring was not destroyed and a piece of his spirit survived through it (or something like that). He was basically off the radar ofeveryone except Mirkwood Middle-earth for quite a while. Basically everyone assumed he was dead, because all the evidence suggested he was dead.
My assumption is that he retreated somewhere (possibly at once to Dol Guldur, but I think probably just wherever he could land that was away from the aftermath of WLA) and was not paying attention to the rest of the world for a while. We know it took a long time for him to build his strength again so I can easily see him being basically comatose for a few hundred years.
The Istari seemed to arrive in Middle-earth circa T.A. 1000 (although it's possible the Blue Wizards arrived earlier?) so it's possible Sauron was aware of them from the moment they arrived, but I tend to doubt it. For one, because even if he was conscious and scheming at this time I don't think his spy network or his ~great eye~ powers were functioning well at this stage. Two, I think it's less interesting if he knew right away.
Furthermore, the Istari seem to have made some effort to be subtle. They disguised themselves as old men and were forbidden to match powers with Sauron etc. The Men thought Gandalf was just a Man who had learned magic through study, until they saw he didn't age, and then they assumed he was Elvenkind, so it seems like it wasn't common knowledge even among the peoples of Middle-earth who or what the Istari were.
We know that Sauron began to make noise in Mirkwood forest circa T.A. 1050 as "the Necromancer." He reoccupies the abandoned Amon Lanc, the dwelling-place of Oropher and his court (which becomes after known as Dol Guldur), and rumors of him are woven into The Hobbit, although even Gandalf seems ignorant of his true identity at that time. We see Sauron's growing strength in the corruption of the Greenwood, which becomes known as Mirkwood as his shadow spreads and poisons the forest.
By circa T.A. 2060, Gandalf and the White Council seem aware that it's likely the Necromancer is Sauron returned, which hints at the strength and expanse of his shadow over Mirkwood and the surrounding area (for instance, the northern fortress of Gundabad, miles away from Mirkwood).
By circa T.A. 2500 Sauron seems to have drawn many Men around Mirkwood forest into his service, so we can assume that by this time he is conscious and functional, at least enough to communicate and make plans.
Therefore his awareness of the Istari comes between 1000 T.A. and 2500 T.A. for a very rough window. I would lean towards sometime not long before 2000 T.A. as a suitable window for him to become aware of the Istari.
When Sauron heard of these "wizards" I think he would have two assumptions. Either:
a) They're con artists who've fooled dumb people into think they have real powers; or
b) The Valar are fucking around.
I think he probably started at a) and transitioned to b) because at the time he determined they might have legitimate magical power, he has plenty of reason to think these are Maiar. Sure they could just be randos with magical powers because weirder things have happened, but what are the odds?
I'm sure he heard rumors of them through his servants and his own efforts at spying, as the peoples of Middle-earth probably would have made a lot of noise about "wizards" in their presence. No matter how subtle the Istari are trying to be, they tend to stand out and are noted as people of power even if it isn't understood exactly who or what they are. Initially I'm sure Sauron brushes off the idea they possess genuine magic, but enough of these rumors and he might start to see truth in it, and then guess at the identity of these "wizards." He may even know some of them personally from his own time serving Aule--Saruman would be the most likely for that. If he was able to observe any of them, via his servants, reports, or through his own magical abilities, I'm sure he would have been able to identify them as Maiar. I'm sure he knew Saruman was a Maia when he put him under his service.
As for his feelings--pissed, probably. Sauron a) doesn't like opposition; b) probably got used to being the only Maia in Middle-earth during the Second Age.
In the First Age, he was one Maia of at least two, because Melian was in Doriath and the area where her power met Sauron's and Melkor's was noted to be a particularly fraught region avoided by anyone who had a choice. He was also lieutenant to Melkor (a role he played happily). But in the Second Age with Melkor gone, the Valar retreated, and Melian disappeared (presumably to hang around Namo nagging him for when Thingol could be reborn), I think he probably got used to thinking of himself as the baddest bitch on the continent. Now there's other Maiar here? No way--fuck off--this is Sauron's territory now!
Also, if there are other Maiar here, it's not a hard guess they're here as servants of the Valar, which means the Valar's "hands-off" approach of the Second Age may be coming to an end, and that must make Sauron nervous. Again, he's gotten used to Middle-earth being his playground and possibly even assuming that with Melkor gone, the Valar will never again see a great enough threat in Middle-earth to intervene, which means he can basically do whatever he wantsan attitude that costs him his hotness. The Istari showing up counter that idea and I don't think he'd like that at all. If the Istari are here, does that mean the Valar might come back someday? I'm sure he vividly remembers the War of Wrath--and I don't think Eonwe and Manwe would be so generous with his claims of repentance and reform a second time.
Now, what about an alliance? If he can bring Maiar under his command--that would make him powerful indeed. However, I think he would be wary of partnering with them rather than destroying them because they have a potential to be such a huge pain in the ass. He chooses to take Saruman under his command because I think he sees that Saruman can be controlled with the Ring, but Gandalf? Radagast? I think he would sooner kill them and have them out of the way than waste time and effort trying to corrupt them, and then trying to keep them from insurrection.
So overall I think he views the Istari as potentially a real threat (being as they are Maiar, even if they are less powerful than he is, and they outnumber him, and he is greatly weakened, and he doesn't know they've been forbidden from matching power with him or really doing anything but nudging the people of Middle-earth to their own defense), and potentially a herald of things to come, and possible allies (although I don't think he would ever really trust them and it's possible he would have killed Saruman once he'd regained the Ring, just to ensure Saruman could never betray him, or just to ensure he remained unquestionably the most powerful being in Middle-earth).
Crossposted from tumblr
Thanks for the question anon, I'm a little touched you care enough about my answer to ask XD
So I finished Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth before I left home earlier this month, and there was a chapter on the Istari! (I have a few more Saruman quotes to post later because it delved a lot into his relationships with Gandalf and Sauron.)
We know that Sauron was greatly weakened at the end of the Second Age, which culminated in the War of the Last Alliance. The only thing that seems to have spared him genuine death is the fact that the One Ring was not destroyed and a piece of his spirit survived through it (or something like that). He was basically off the radar of
My assumption is that he retreated somewhere (possibly at once to Dol Guldur, but I think probably just wherever he could land that was away from the aftermath of WLA) and was not paying attention to the rest of the world for a while. We know it took a long time for him to build his strength again so I can easily see him being basically comatose for a few hundred years.
The Istari seemed to arrive in Middle-earth circa T.A. 1000 (although it's possible the Blue Wizards arrived earlier?) so it's possible Sauron was aware of them from the moment they arrived, but I tend to doubt it. For one, because even if he was conscious and scheming at this time I don't think his spy network or his ~great eye~ powers were functioning well at this stage. Two, I think it's less interesting if he knew right away.
Furthermore, the Istari seem to have made some effort to be subtle. They disguised themselves as old men and were forbidden to match powers with Sauron etc. The Men thought Gandalf was just a Man who had learned magic through study, until they saw he didn't age, and then they assumed he was Elvenkind, so it seems like it wasn't common knowledge even among the peoples of Middle-earth who or what the Istari were.
We know that Sauron began to make noise in Mirkwood forest circa T.A. 1050 as "the Necromancer." He reoccupies the abandoned Amon Lanc, the dwelling-place of Oropher and his court (which becomes after known as Dol Guldur), and rumors of him are woven into The Hobbit, although even Gandalf seems ignorant of his true identity at that time. We see Sauron's growing strength in the corruption of the Greenwood, which becomes known as Mirkwood as his shadow spreads and poisons the forest.
By circa T.A. 2060, Gandalf and the White Council seem aware that it's likely the Necromancer is Sauron returned, which hints at the strength and expanse of his shadow over Mirkwood and the surrounding area (for instance, the northern fortress of Gundabad, miles away from Mirkwood).
By circa T.A. 2500 Sauron seems to have drawn many Men around Mirkwood forest into his service, so we can assume that by this time he is conscious and functional, at least enough to communicate and make plans.
Therefore his awareness of the Istari comes between 1000 T.A. and 2500 T.A. for a very rough window. I would lean towards sometime not long before 2000 T.A. as a suitable window for him to become aware of the Istari.
When Sauron heard of these "wizards" I think he would have two assumptions. Either:
a) They're con artists who've fooled dumb people into think they have real powers; or
b) The Valar are fucking around.
I think he probably started at a) and transitioned to b) because at the time he determined they might have legitimate magical power, he has plenty of reason to think these are Maiar. Sure they could just be randos with magical powers because weirder things have happened, but what are the odds?
I'm sure he heard rumors of them through his servants and his own efforts at spying, as the peoples of Middle-earth probably would have made a lot of noise about "wizards" in their presence. No matter how subtle the Istari are trying to be, they tend to stand out and are noted as people of power even if it isn't understood exactly who or what they are. Initially I'm sure Sauron brushes off the idea they possess genuine magic, but enough of these rumors and he might start to see truth in it, and then guess at the identity of these "wizards." He may even know some of them personally from his own time serving Aule--Saruman would be the most likely for that. If he was able to observe any of them, via his servants, reports, or through his own magical abilities, I'm sure he would have been able to identify them as Maiar. I'm sure he knew Saruman was a Maia when he put him under his service.
As for his feelings--pissed, probably. Sauron a) doesn't like opposition; b) probably got used to being the only Maia in Middle-earth during the Second Age.
In the First Age, he was one Maia of at least two, because Melian was in Doriath and the area where her power met Sauron's and Melkor's was noted to be a particularly fraught region avoided by anyone who had a choice. He was also lieutenant to Melkor (a role he played happily). But in the Second Age with Melkor gone, the Valar retreated, and Melian disappeared (presumably to hang around Namo nagging him for when Thingol could be reborn), I think he probably got used to thinking of himself as the baddest bitch on the continent. Now there's other Maiar here? No way--fuck off--this is Sauron's territory now!
Also, if there are other Maiar here, it's not a hard guess they're here as servants of the Valar, which means the Valar's "hands-off" approach of the Second Age may be coming to an end, and that must make Sauron nervous. Again, he's gotten used to Middle-earth being his playground and possibly even assuming that with Melkor gone, the Valar will never again see a great enough threat in Middle-earth to intervene, which means he can basically do whatever he wants
Now, what about an alliance? If he can bring Maiar under his command--that would make him powerful indeed. However, I think he would be wary of partnering with them rather than destroying them because they have a potential to be such a huge pain in the ass. He chooses to take Saruman under his command because I think he sees that Saruman can be controlled with the Ring, but Gandalf? Radagast? I think he would sooner kill them and have them out of the way than waste time and effort trying to corrupt them, and then trying to keep them from insurrection.
So overall I think he views the Istari as potentially a real threat (being as they are Maiar, even if they are less powerful than he is, and they outnumber him, and he is greatly weakened, and he doesn't know they've been forbidden from matching power with him or really doing anything but nudging the people of Middle-earth to their own defense), and potentially a herald of things to come, and possible allies (although I don't think he would ever really trust them and it's possible he would have killed Saruman once he'd regained the Ring, just to ensure Saruman could never betray him, or just to ensure he remained unquestionably the most powerful being in Middle-earth).
Crossposted from tumblr