rocky41_7

i hope you don't mind me asking, but i'm genuinely curious about how you perceive curufin and celebrimbor's relationship, like from aman to beleriand. honestly, every iteration of their bond, whether it's generational trauma (tough love) or the loving father-son is wonderful (and painful) because, for me, both fit them so much. sorry, i just love exploring their interactions (especially celebrimbor's relationship with his other uncles as well), they have me in a chokehold.

I said:

Don’t apologize for giving me an excuse to talk about Elves, this is the Talking About Elves blog! (｡･∀･)ﾉﾞ

This is a juicy question! I am obsessed with family dynamics, so I always love considering things like this. First off, I think via canon there are almost infinite ways to interpret this relationship prior to Curufin’s exile from Nargothrond. Some are, for me, more believable than others–for instance, I simply struggle to buy Curufin, son of Feanor, as a lovey-dovey father, but there’s nothing in the text that strictly refutes it.

I think to start I need to talk briefly about Curufin’s relationship with Feanor, because I think he tries (with varying degrees of success) to model much of what he does off of Feanor.

I think Curufin hero-worshipped Feanor growing up, and that didn’t really change much into adulthood. He even went into his father’s craft, the only one of Feanor’s sons noted to do so. He looked a lot like Feanor, he followed his father’s footsteps in career, and yet–we never hear of a single noteworthy invention or artistic piece of his. Curufin’s name is on nothing. Feanor’s inventions require an encyclopedia, and Celebrimbor’s work survives well into the Third Age (and arguably into the Fourth), but Curufin? Nada.

And I think Feanor was a very difficult father. I don’t want to get in here about whether he was a good father or not because this ask isn’t about him, but I do think he was a demanding father. He was brilliant and incredibly driven, and I think he expected a lot from his sons. Add to that that he had seven kids and only so much attention to go around, and the best way to get his attention growing up was to have an achievement. Therefore, I think all seven of them developed some sense of needing to earn dad’s attention.

All of this collectively to me ends with Curufin trying very hard to replicate Feanor, but not doing a very good job. Ergo, he was incredibly demanding on Celebrimbor, believing that the best way to handle a child was to raise them to exacting standards, tiger-mom style. But Celebrimbor is a very different person than Curufin, and would have thrived a lot more under a gentler hand. Nevertheless, I think he did try hard to live up to his father’s standards–it’s just that Curufin could actually end up being harsher than Feanor, which means Celebrimbor actually got less from his father than Curufin got from Feanor. There’s also the element of Curufin wanting to use his son to impress his dad, which didn’t help (still after daddy’s attention after all).

I do think Celebrimbor bought pretty hard into the Feanorian Kool-Aid generally though. He was raised among people who were increasingly fanatical; it makes sense to me that he shared their mindset, because it was the one that surrounded him his whole youth. I think he was all on-board with the revolt of the Noldor, but I think the kinslaying at Alqualonde really gave him second thoughts.

Curufin, I think, has and develops a much more “the ends justify the means” attitude, as well as embracing the Feanorians’ descent into darkness a lot quicker than, say, Maglor. But Celebrimbor doesn’t quite. I think Alqualonde unsettles him quite a lot, as much as he tells himself it was a mistake, an accident, something that will never happen again.

So he lives with Celegorm and Curufin and busies himself making a life in Middle-earth. By this point in his life, I think Celebrimbor has grown to regret choosing smithing and jewel-craft as a focus, because he can’t help but wonder if Curufin would be less strict if he’d gone into some field Curufin didn’t really know anything about, which wasn’t related at all to late granddad Feanor. (He also wonders if spending less time together wouldn’t be better for his and Curufin’s relationship.)

And then they go to Nargothrond.

More background: I do not think Celegorm and Curufin, the latter especially, like Finrod. I think generally the Feanorians find the Arafinweans preachy and sanctimonious, and very annoying. So having to go to him to ask for shelter and charity is incredibly grating on Curufin, and liable to make him particularly nasty to Finrod even as he’s getting help from him.

However, Celebrimbor thinks Finrod is a delight! Finrod is so much that Curufin is not: cheerful, optimistic, gentle, quick to praise and slow to anger. And he loves playing the uncle, so he’s more than happy to take Celebrimbor under his wing a bit and get him settled in Nargothrond. In turn, Celebrimbor warms right up to him and is eager to show Finrod anything he’s working on, because Finrod will find something nice to say about even his worst projects. Celebrimbor thrives in an encouraging atmosphere, and he gets from Finrod what he always wanted from Curufin. It has the effect of rousing some old childhood resentment about his dad’s seeming inability to be nicer.

Curufin does not approve of Celebrimbor getting “too close” to Finrod. He gets nastier in response.

I think Celebrimbor disapproved of his father and uncle’s behavior long before they were officially exiled. I think watching Curufin interact with Finrod revealed to Celebrimbor things about his father he had never wanted to know, like how petty and childish and cruel Curufin can be. And I think Celebrimbor was embarrassed to watch his father behave this way towards someone who had been so generous with them, even in spite of his rocky past relationship with Curufin.

So I think even before Beren showed up, Celebrimbor was reconsidering his relationship with Curufin, and while I think he kept a lot of these thoughts to himself as he was mulling it over, there was chafing in that relationship, but Curufin blamed Finrod and didn’t take it seriously.

So when Curufin supports Celegorm in turning Nargothrond against Finrod and sending him out to certain death, after everything Finrod had done for them, I think Celebrimbor was not only horrified, he grieved. He loved Finrod! And I think he was disgusted that Curufin would support Celegorm’s plan to force Luthien to marry him, and that they lied to her and imprisoned her.

The events of Nargothrond revealed just how low Curufin could go (and ofc it does get worse later, with the Second Kinslaying and the additional attempts to murder Beren and Luthien) and Celebrimbor realized that far from repenting for the First Kinslaying, Curufin seemed even less moored to any kind of moral code. So I think here he realized he simply could not go along with his father or his uncle anymore. At some point you have to ask yourself about the kind of people you want to surround yourself with, and I think Celebrimbor wanted nothing to do with them anymore. I think it hurt him, to think people he loved were they sorts of people, and I think he was crushingly disappointed in both of them, but particularly after Finrod’s grisly death (along with the Elves who had stuck by his side), I think Celebrimbor simply could not justify standing by Curufin’s side anymore, and the fact that Curufin never expressed any regret for what he had done contributed to that.

Feanorians barred from rebirth etc. but even if they were not, I do not believe a reborn Celebrimbor has a lot to say to his paternal family. He watched them only get worse from the point where he had disowned them, and I think by the time they’re all gone, they disgust and horrify him so much that he really does not want to interact with them at all. I think he would go full no-contact if they were ever around each other again, and at best might accept a profuse apology for all the things they did. Even if they were committed to being better, at that point I’m just not sure there’s any relationship there left to rebuild. I think they burned that bridge with him and there’s no building it back. Civil distance is as much as they can probably hope for.

So yeah, these are my general baseline thoughts on it!

Anonymous said:

Hey, were you the one who posted how Maglor himself thought the oath and kinslayings were such evil acts? If so, how come there are those who still believe the second and third kinslaying is justified when Maglor himself thought it to be such an evil deed? I really need like a solid reasoning cause I was talking to someone who still believes the kinslayings were justified/needed and doesn't take my "murder is wrong" thing as a reason lol

I said:

That was indeed my post! If we’re thinking of the same one. I’ve definitely made a post like that.

I mean I don’t really know what to say besides “murder is wrong” lol If we can’t agree on that um. I don’t really know where we go.

The argument in favor of the kinslayings that I’ve seen usually boils down to property rights. Because the Silmarils are the rightful (and that’s honestly debatable) property of the Feanorians, anyone who keeps the Silmarils from them deserves what they get, basically.

Which is. Kind of bonkers as a moral philosophy, even if you DO buy that the Feanorians have an uncontested right to the Silmarils. #1: We’re punishing theft or conversion with DEATH now? That’s acceptable to us? #2: The harm the Feanorians caused went far beyond the individual who possessed the Silmaril (Dior in the Second Kinslaying and Elwing in the Third). Even if Dior had taken that Silmaril right out of Maedhros’ hand and spit in his eye on the way out it wouldn’t justify the wholesale slaughter of an entire kingdom. They literally murdered children over things. Items. Stuff. Magical cool stuff yeah–but they valued it over lives. Does anyone honestly think Tolkien would have written a story agreeing with that as a moral view?

I don’t know how you look at Maedhros and Maglor–the ONLY two of SEVEN sons to survive through the Third Kinslaying–and think THEY think they did the right thing. Five of their brothers have now died in assaults on other Elves which they began. Maglor argues for breaking the oath there, he resists Maedhros’ drive to the Fourth Kinslaying (until he doesn’t), and at the end of it all, he throws his precious Silmaril into the sea. Maedhros kills himself over it. These are not the actions of people who feel GOOD about where their lives have gone and the actions they’ve taken. Tolkien is so blatantly obvious about the Feanorians being in the wrong it’s always a little wild to me that the KINSLAYINGS get defended.

On the note of the Fourth Kinslaying, let’s not forget that: That after everything, after the War of Wrath is over and everyone is ready to go home and see their families and be at peace, a whole group of Elves get murdered by Maglor and Maedhros again over the Silmarils. A group–Eonwe’s guard–of people who had survived a war with MORGOTH die because Maedhros and Maglor weren’t willing to break their oath.

An oath which Tolkien casts as wicked from the very start–something that was always likely to bring them to evil acts.

Furthermore, as Dior points out in some versions outside Silm proper, at the time the Second Kinslaying is committed, Melkor still has two of the Silmarils. Even if Dior had handed over Luthien’s Silmaril–to the people who had kidnapped and attempted to forcibly marry and presumably rape his mom; and also tried to murder her and his father later on–the oath is still not fulfilled, because Melkor has two.

The fact that the Feanorians choose to pursue Luthien’s Silmaril with violence and bloodshed rather than make a go at the two that Melkor has has always revealed their hypocrisy to me. They chose Luthien’s Silmaril because they knew it would be easier to get than the ones that Melkor has. Easier to kill other Elves if they don’t give you what you want, than to attack or infiltrate Angband. Even now, when they know it’s possible–because Beren and Luthien did it, and they had FAR fewer resources at hand than the Feanorians (and for the record, Fingon also successfully infiltrated Angband; Gwindor and others have successfully escaped from Angband)–they choose to slay other Elves instead. Say again the Second Kinslaying was “necessary”?

This is how Tolkien describes the attack on the Havens:

Does this description sound like people taking justified action? And let’s not forget, in this battle, the Feanorians’ own troops are so horrified by their actions that they turn against them.

Members of the Feanorians’ own people find their actions so terrible they cannot simply join those who stand by and refuse to attack the Havens, but they actively join the fight on the side of the Havens. Moreover, the heroic Gil-galad arrives intending to stop the Feanorians and aid the Havens. Sure, he arrives too late–but his intent is made clear: the Feanorians are the villains here, who need to be stopped.

And I don’t think it is uncontested that the Silmarils belong to the Feanorians. For one, they were created entirely and only by Feanor; none of his sons had anything to do with it. And for two, the universe itself has deemed by the end that the Feanorians no longer have a property right in them, when the Silmarils burn the hands of Maedhros and Maglor because of all the evil they’ve committed. The jewels themselves will not be touched by these people who have done so much wrong. Eonwe tries to warn them about this before they even commit the Fourth Kinslaying.

Like…I don’t know how the book could be more clear that the Kinslayings were wrong and that Maedhros and Maglor were in the wrong.

I think fans are so invested in the Feanorians they’re willing to bend over backwards to find some view where they didn’t actually commit horrific war crimes and were in fact in the right. But that’s just not the story Tolkien wrote. Also, you can like them and still admit they did horrible things. You are allowed to like characters who are in the wrong!

"The fact that the Feanorians choose to pursue Luthien's Silmaril with violence and bloodshed rather than make a go at the two that Melkor has always revealed their hypocrisy to me."

YES!! YES TO THIS, I always wonder why they chose to do the easy way out and commit horrific acts instead of doing what Luthien did to retake the silmarils from Melkor again. Didn't Maedhros hear the deeds of Beren and Luthien? How come he didn't go like 'Maybe I should do that too instead of committing mass murder?' Like, many can boast about the might of the feanorians, but the fact that they committed the kinslayings when Doriath was vulnerable and the ruler was still young shows how much of a coward they are.

You said so many good takes that I really want to discuss, but I don't wanna annoy you with too many asks hahahaha

As someone fairly pointed out in the tags, an effort for Melkor’s total overthrow was made (I do think “defeat Melkor” and “regain the Silmarils” are two separate goals, although the former would definitely make the latter much easier), and the Nirnaeth ends in a very decisive and lasting defeat for Maedhros, which I’m sure put him off trying again.

Interestingly, Beren and Luthien were precisely what inspired Maedhros to try the Nirnaeth:

However, what’s notable about all other successful efforts to get in and out of Angband is that they were all stealth missions to a degree. It was just a handful of people–or even a single person–not a whole armed assault. Why didn’t Maedhros ever try this? We can only speculate.

My personal take has been that he simply despaired after the Nirnaeth. He believed Melkor could not be overcome (indicated above he had already before the Nirnaeth begun to believe that it was not possible to successfully attack Melkor) and therefore there was no point in trying to obtain the two Silmarils that he had–better to go for the one where they might have success: the one held by other Elves, who can be defeated.

Particularly interesting is that where Maedhros originally took hope from the success of Beren and Luthien, he later apparently comes to see it as their holding something which belongs to him–which to me speaks to his no longer seeing the other two Silmarils as in play, and falling back on the one which is still obtainable.

Does that justify it? Of course not.

Furthermore, one would ask why this allegedly skilled diplomat was unable to come to any understanding with Dior and in this, I’m inclined to put the fault on Maedhros, who is older and frankly, after what his house has done to Dior’s house, the one who needs to be making concessions. After all, why was it so urgent? Why could the Feanorians not take time to try to convince Dior of their view? Elves are immortal, after all–it’s not like Maedhros had a ticking clock behind him, unless he believed (as I think he did) that Melkor’s victory over Middle-earth was assured, and wanted to get at least one Silmaril before the ultimate defeat of the free peoples of Middle-earth. But that’s just my opinion.

As I noted to a friend this morning, I have an unfortunate condition of being incapable of not sharing my opinion when it’s asked for, so don’t you worry about that XD If I need a break from answering asks, I’ll take it.

Anyway, this stuff is so interesting to think about! It’s not really a surprise why Maedhros has captured the fandom so well–there’s a lot going on there.

God, the disaster that is Nirnaeth Arnoediad must've brought Maedhros and his brother's reputation down the drain, Maedhros especially. The alliance was named after him and that must've brought so much shit to his name. Like, I wonder how he lived after that battle? Was he able to sleep every night knowing he failed spectacularly? Did he always dream of what could have been? Because every time I think of that fifth battle, I think to myself, how did Maedhros bear that failure with grace, when I myself felt that shame when they fell back. What do you think?

The Nirnaeth feels like a turning point, for the Noldor in Middle-earth. A number of things went wrong, among them that Tolkien tells us Maedhros revealed his strength too soon to Melkor. There were so many moments it seemed like they could pull this off, or at least cause some real damage to Melkor, but there were just so many things that worked against them, not least of all the betrayals Melkor sowed among the Noldor’s allies and the fact that the Feanorians had alienated major Elvish allies in Middle-earth (Doriath, Nargothrond) which could have made a real difference in the fight.

Part of being a leader is living with the choices you make. Honestly, a critical part of being a leader is being able to accept your mistakes and bad judgement calls without letting it ruin your ability to make decisions going forward. The problem is, it feels like Maedhros was already growing desperate. It seems he had already begun to lose faith that Melkor could be defeated, for the Nirnaeth chapter opens on how Maedhros’ heart was uplifted to hear of Beren and Luthien’s success in assaulting Angband, seeing that Melkor was not, in fact, unassailable (ergo, prior to B&L, Maedhros had believed or begun to believe Melkor was untouchable). Fingolfin, beloved high king of the Noldor who led them through hundreds of years of the long peace after fencing Melkor into Angband, met his glorious and messy end less than twenty years earlier. Fingon is a fetus of a king by Elf standards. The Feanorians have now turned two of the largest Elven kingdoms in Middle-earth against them, one of which was founded and ruled by their own damn cousin. The Feanorians are still bound to their oath. All of this leads to Maedhros showing his hand to Melkor too soon, and the whole thing has an air of desperation around it. Not very auspicious for them.

Personally, I view the Nirnaeth as THE major turning point for Maedhros as an individual. I talked here about his strategy and how it changes after the Nirnaeth, but I think his defeat here is what makes him completely and genuinely lose hope that Melkor can ever be defeated at all. I think Maedhros needed the Nirnaeth to prove something to himself, and it does the opposite of that. They lose a lot and get virtually nothing in return. The name itself tells you what a devastating defeat it was (“Unnumbered Tears”).

And I do not think he bore it with grace.

It’s after the Nirnaeth we see Maedhros become increasingly willing to enact violence against other Elves, and to do virtually anything to get his hands on Luthien’s Silmaril, because I think he does not consider the other two obtainable. Maedhros, in my mind, is simply trying to get his hands on one piece of their goal before Melkor conquers Middle-earth (which, to Maedhros, I think is inevitable). Maedhros has neither amdir nor estel, and he sinks lower and lower into a moral nadir flailing around in the general direction of his goals, because if you have no hope of a future, who cares about fucking the present?

However, regarding the Nirnaeth and its impact on Maedhros’ reputation: Don’t worry! I’m sure by the end of the First Age, the Nirnaeth isn’t the first thing that comes to mind regarding Maedhros’ impact on Beleriand 🙃

Does it ever exhaust you that despite the little information on mama bird, somehow the gist they got from Elwing is that she is (implied to be) an addict/junkie for the stones (which gives way for her to be written as a neglectful/abusive mom? which also gives way for the eventual questionable fam that I am not touching) when the first thing she did after saying 'fuck you' to her murderers was to give the stones to her husband? So weird.

The people of Sirion believed the Silmarils were protecting them and Earendil on his quest. That’s why they wanted to keep them. And because they didn’t want to bargain with the people who had tried to destroy them before. It’s right there in the text.

Elwing willingly, voluntarily, and without fanfare giving Earendil the Silmaril to me shows us that it was never that she wanted to keep it for herself. It was about a) what the Silmaril was doing for them (she believed); and b) specifically not wanting to give it to the Feanorians.

That said, I think you could do an interesting exploration of “what if she was hooked on the Silmaril” or smth, but even when it’s not being used as a justification for why Maglor was right to kidnap her children, it’s just not a take I’m personally interested in.

Sure, maybe Fingon is a saint who harbors no resentment…but I’m not particularly interested in that take. #1, Fingon is presumably made a kinslayer in Alqualonde for the sake of the Feanorians, whom he believed were under unjust assault, but who were, in fact, the aggressors. #2, Although Maedhros does not partake in the burning of the ships at Losgar (something it’s implied Fingon learns eventually), neither did he make any effort to stop it, and that decision of the Feanorians’ helped condemn the rest of the Noldor host to the Helcaraxe, where, among other things, Fingon’s sister-in-law dies. I would say he certainly has grounds to be angry with Maedhros and furthermore, to distrust him going forward.