“I have the lingering sense I’m doing something I oughtn’t be,” Thranduil said with some amusement when he managed to separate from Elrond to breathe again, which took several efforts at pulling out of Elrond’s chasing kisses. Elrond blinked stupidly at him, his mind admittedly not presently running on all four wheels.
“You think your council would disapprove?” he asked, beginning to gather an argument. Thranduil let out a brief, sudden burst of laughter and his lips twisted into a smile.
“I think Glorfindel would disapprove,” he said. “Surely there must be more pomp and ceremony involved before touching a son of Eärendil this way.” Understanding spread across Elrond’s face at the thrust of Thranduil’s jest—for he assumed it was, though perhaps not in whole—and his eyes narrowed fractionally.
“This son of Eärendil shall be most unhappy if you cease touching him for Glorfindel’s sake,” he replied at once, trying not to put real annoyance into his voice as he climbed pointedly onto Thranduil’s lap. “You may do whatever I say you may do,” he added more imperiously, cupping Thranduil’s face between his hands.
“Very well, my lord,” Thranduil demurred easily, that smile still tugging at his mouth. Elrond could not decide if he was pleased or not by that title, so he simply sealed his lips over Thranduil’s again, and moved the king’s hand where he wanted it best, and Thranduil generously obliged him.
You've pointed out how Miriel said she's glad that they (Indis' children) exist, and that Indis has her love. Do you think that would've changed anything in the house of Finwe? Like the relationship between Feanor and Fingolfin?
I said:
That’s a great question! I’ll be honest, I haven’t thought about it before. If there was anyone who could talk Feanor off hating Indis and her kids, it’s probably Miriel. If their conversation took place after his death (although RIP Feanor, Miriel in Morgoth’s Ring leaves the Halls right before Feanor arrives), I think he would be more inclined to listen. If she’d come back and tried to talk to him when he was still alive in Valinor and under the influence of Melkor’s lies, I’m not sure even Miriel would have gotten through to him. But assuming they spoke post-mortem, I can see how with time and effort Miriel could make Feanor see that Indis and her kids were not a threat or an insult. I think it would take a long time to normalize those relationships, but I like to think it would be possible.
Alternatively, if like, Miriel had communicated these thoughts to Finwe (or anyone else) from beyond the grave and Feanor just kind of had to take it as truth that she felt that way…I’m not sure that would have changed much. He would have thought on it, but Feanor’s concern with them was also about the existential threat he considered them to pose to himself. If Miriel, the queen, could be so easily replaced, why not also the crown prince? If Miriel is no longer the queen of the Noldor, then what is her son, Feanor? And I don’t think even Miriel’s reassurance that she has no issue with Indis’ kids would quell that concern for Feanor, particularly with Melkor whispering in his ear that Fingolfin intends to usurp him.
I think Indis might have been grateful to hear this, just for the reassurance…and I’m sure her kids would’ve considered it a suitable comeback to Feanor’s dislike (“Even your mom has no fight with us!”)
Hey, are you still bitter/salty over the characterization of Thranduil in The Hobbits movie? It's been 9 years and I'm still pissed because despite how beautiful Lee Pace's Thranduil was, I felt like it warped the perception of who Thranduil really is as a king, father, and son. Even Oropher's reputation in the fandom kinda sored.
I said:
Anon, I will be salty about that until I’m cold in the ground.
There are actually a number of things I like about The Hobbit films. Lee Pace does a wonderful job with what he was given; he really captures the ethereal grace of a being who is above mortal concerns. I love the aesthetics of Mirkwood and its people in the films. And I’m not salty that they tried to beef up his character a little–there’s really not much to go on in the books, so adding the tragedy of his wife weighing on him and complicating his relationship with Legolas (do NOT talk to me about how the films massacred Legolas) wasn’t a bad way to add more emotional weight to his story. Neither was adding his alluding to the War of Wrath to give him more personal feelings about the waking of Smaug.
But the thing they tried to do where they wanted to make Thranduil ~morally ambiguous~ was so yuck. In the books he has beef with the Dwarves, yeah–because they were trespassing on his land, refuse to tell him why, and have a significant chance of stirring up a dragon if they continue. IF he overreacted, there were some relevant issues at play here. And Bilbo himself describes Thranduil as a well-liked “king of a good and kindly people.”
In fact, Bilbo is so taken with Thranduil that at the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo explicitly thinks that if he were made to choose among them, he would side with the Elvenking. Yes, OVER Thorin.
Final thoughts are that the Elves in Mirkwood in the films have so little joy? In the books, the Company stumbles across them feasting and partying in the woods; in the movies, Legolas’ scout contingent captures them without any prior contact. All three of the main Elves in the story–Thranduil, Legolas, and Tauriel–are so sober and serious the entire trilogy; I think Tauriel is the only one who smiles or ever looks happy. YES the Elves of Mirkwood are dealing with a lot–Sauron in the backyard and all–BUT the book also shows how much joy they still have, and I think that’s really missing from the movies, from Thranduil and all the rest of them.
Also, they cut Thranduil laying Orcrist on Thorin’s tomb and that makes me sad.
"The fact that the Feanorians choose to pursue Luthien's Silmaril with violence and bloodshed rather than make a go at the two that Melkor has always revealed their hypocrisy to me."
YES!! YES TO THIS, I always wonder why they chose to do the easy way out and commit horrific acts instead of doing what Luthien did to retake the silmarils from Melkor again. Didn't Maedhros hear the deeds of Beren and Luthien? How come he didn't go like 'Maybe I should do that too instead of committing mass murder?' Like, many can boast about the might of the feanorians, but the fact that they committed the kinslayings when Doriath was vulnerable and the ruler was still young shows how much of a coward they are.
You said so many good takes that I really want to discuss, but I don't wanna annoy you with too many asks hahahaha
I said:
As someone fairly pointed out in the tags, an effort for Melkor’s total overthrow was made (I do think “defeat Melkor” and “regain the Silmarils” are two separate goals, although the former would definitely make the latter much easier), and the Nirnaeth ends in a very decisive and lasting defeat for Maedhros, which I’m sure put him off trying again.
Interestingly, Beren and Luthien were precisely what inspired Maedhros to try the Nirnaeth:
“In those days Maedhros son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand…and he began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of Maedhros.” ( “Of The Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad,”The Silmarillion)
However, what’s notable about all other successful efforts to get in and out of Angband is that they were all stealth missions to a degree. It was just a handful of people–or even a single person–not a whole armed assault. Why didn’t Maedhros ever try this? We can only speculate.
My personal take has been that he simply despaired after the Nirnaeth. He believed Melkor could not be overcome (indicated above he had already before the Nirnaeth begun to believe that it was not possible to successfully attack Melkor) and therefore there was no point in trying to obtain the two Silmarils that he had–better to go for the one where they might have success: the one held by other Elves, who can be defeated.
Particularly interesting is that where Maedhros originally took hope from the success of Beren and Luthien, he later apparently comes to see it as their holding something which belongs to him–which to me speaks to his no longer seeing the other two Silmarils as in play, and falling back on the one which is still obtainable.
Does that justify it? Of course not.
Furthermore, one would ask why this allegedly skilled diplomat was unable to come to any understanding with Dior and in this, I’m inclined to put the fault on Maedhros, who is older and frankly, after what his house has done to Dior’s house, the one who needs to be making concessions. After all, why was it so urgent? Why could the Feanorians not take time to try to convince Dior of their view? Elves are immortal, after all–it’s not like Maedhros had a ticking clock behind him, unless he believed (as I think he did) that Melkor’s victory over Middle-earth was assured, and wanted to get at least one Silmaril before the ultimate defeat of the free peoples of Middle-earth. But that’s just my opinion.
As I noted to a friend this morning, I have an unfortunate condition of being incapable of not sharing my opinion when it’s asked for, so don’t you worry about that XD If I need a break from answering asks, I’ll take it.
Anyway, this stuff is so interesting to think about! It’s not really a surprise why Maedhros has captured the fandom so well–there’s a lot going on there.
Excerpt: Mithrellas meant to tell her to fight. She meant to echo some of Nimrodel’s own stirring words and infectious passions. But Mithrellas had no gift of tongue, and before Nimrodel in particular she faltered, and so she said nothing, and Nimrodel kept her own counsel.
Saw your Thranduil defense posts, and I hope you don't mind me asking for fics that centered on or spoke of Thranduil with respect? Especially when it tackles his relationship with his son or with his other kins.
Elvenkings by @meadowlarkx - This covers viewpoints of several Doriathrim, but it is so beautifully and lovingly done, and so well captures the potential history behind Thranduil’s attitudes as a ruler.
A Giftby serenityabrin - Adorable re-imagining of the scene where Bilbo gives Thranduil the necklace he took from Erebor, which makes his crush on Thranduil official ;)
Devices of the Heart by stewardess - A really very fun fic where Thorin runs into a mysterious stag while lost in the forest and must learn to break a spell…Excellent fairy tale energy in this AU!
A Light Burns in the Forestby tinnurin - Wrenching depiction of Thranduil and Oropher fleeing the Second Kinslaying with beautiful accompanying art.
Of Roots and Where They Lieby humancorn - A great look at Thranduil’s upbringing in Doriath, in a scenario where he learns magic from Melian.
The Fathers of Foolsby carlandrea - Gloin and Thranduil discuss their sons joining the Fellowship. Really captures Thranduil’s grief over the danger Legolas is in :(
Ear to the Ground, Eye to the Skyby allthegoodnamesaretakendammit - This is a more Thorin-centric fic, but Thranduil does feature heavily, and I really enjoyed the AU. Here, Thorin dreams the events of The Hobbit and when he wakes up, tries to avoid that outcome.
Since I’ve already listed them all out, I’ll also just link to my Thorinduil rec list, all of which I would say treat Thranduil well as a character.
If anyone else has others, please feel free to add!
Anonymous said (pertinent to an earlier discussion):
Despite being at the forefront of the kinslayings, If I had to pick the "nicest feanorian", the character that comes to my mind isn't Maglor. I think that title should be given to two feanorians who deserve it best. One who actually regrets, who has been written and headcanon many times as someone who actually reaches out to apologize for his actions even though words can't undo many wrongs. One who has such good relations with the other houses, one who's probably the sanest among the brothers, and that's Maedhros.
The other is Celebrimbor, and I don't think I have to explain why. He's the bestest boy who doesn't give me a headache every time I read fics about him.
I want to know who you think should be given that title.
I said:
I would disagree, tbh. Truthfully I don’t think there’s much sense in arguing about who “the nicest one” was because none of them was nice enough to not do the things they did. Maedhros led three unprovoked mass slaughters and twisted Maglor’s arm into doing the last one, and there’s no evidence I recall that he ever apologized for anything, except maybe while trying to sweet-talk Dior or Elwing into handing over the Silmaril. As the leader of the Feanorians, Maedhros also bears some responsibility for the actions of his brothers while they were under his command–that is, for Celegorm’s men taking two children and dragging them out into the woods to abandon them–because he created an atmosphere where this behavior was permitted, or at least not prevented.
What the fandom sees as Maglor’s great redeeming act–raising his hostages–Maedhros took no part in that we’re told of by canon. He usually gets lumped into Kidnap Fam by default, but the actual text only describes Maglor as having a relationship with the twins.
Of course, given how little we’re told about their personalities, we can headcanon quite a lot–I just personally don’t see Maedhros as a particularly nice person. Practical, yes. Nice? Not so much.
Celebrimbor on the other hand…TT_TT The arc I love for Celebrimbor is of someone who tried so hard to rise above his family legacy, to do better, to BE better, and ended up causing MORE damage than anyone in his family had done. The worst thing for Celebrimbor I think wasn’t being tortured by Sauron–it was being in the Halls and seeing or hearing of Sauron’s conquest across Middle-earth unfolding, knowing that HE had enabled it.
As with the rest, we don’t get much on Celebrimbor’s personality so there’s a lot of room for interpretation, but I’m always attached to the idea that he was suspicious of Annatar–but he remembered what his father and his uncles’ suspicions had driven them to, and decided to believe he had an excess of suspicion from the Feanorian side, and ignored it. And then :’).
Celebrimbor’s story is also a tragedy, but for different reasons, and it always gets me.
The field upon which their last great blow against Morgoth had been turned aside was a barren expanse of sunbaked mud. Dust blew up from the cracks in the earth and whipped through the air in a thousand tiny storms; heaps of remains, of armor, of weapons, dotted the landscape, and reigning over all, the putrid Haudh-en-Nirnaeth.
Daeron had heard already of the fate of the high king of the Noldor, and he knew this wasteland had nothing for him, yet he came, unable to sever the cord of destiny around his throat. He trudged across the desolate land and each rusting trinket he passed stabbed at his heart, for it seemed to him that the fate of Middle-earth was now written, and no hope remained to them.
Because there was nothing to find, there was nowhere to stop; he only came as close as he dared to the Hill and sank down onto his knees, the gritty breeze stinging his dark cheeks. Had it been here, he wondered? Was this his resting place? It might as well have been.
Daeron had never seen a skull split with a single blow, but his imagination worked wonders in this regard: of splintered bones and rent muscles and ruptured organs, of blood pouring forth onto thirsty soil, of the obliteration of a person.
Daeron bent forward until his forehead touched the desecrated ground and a low moan trailed from his throat; he tried to subordinate these thoughts to the memory of Fingon as he had been at the Mereth Aderthad, how he had allowed Daeron to coax smiles and laughter from a heart wearied of tragedy, but he could not do it. The only other thing on which his mind would focus was his own desperate pleading just before battle: at the edge of the woods he had relinquished any remaining shreds of dignity to grasp at Fingon’s doublet, begging him to forget it, to forget his kingship and his kin and Morgoth most of all, and come into the wood with Daeron, and leave the rest behind.
In a tiny pocket Daeron had sewn inside his tunic, over the left side of his breast, was a loop of wavy black hair which Fingon had given him when he said goodbye in favor of his duty. This Daeron could still remember: How Fingon had smiled when he pressed it into Daeron’s hand, assuring him that all would be well, and when they met again, it would be under a sun which shone not upon the Enemy, and then Fingon would take Daeron to Hithlum that he might partake in the grand celebrations of the Noldor.
Seeing that Fingon could not be turned from his course, Daeron had said no more of it, and allowed Fingon to make his promises and embrace him that he might go to his end at least assured of Daeron’s affections. Now was come the shadow Daeron had foreseen, and there was nothing left over which he might mourn; there was not even a suggestion of the final resting place of Fingon Fingolfinion, prince from across the great wide sea. Once again, Daeron found himself merely tangential to another’s tale, sitting in the ruins of all that had been at the start of the tale and now was no more.
Sitting back on his heels, Daeron turned his face up to the sky, and his tears ran back into his braids.
“What I have done to make you so despise me, I repent of it,” he said to the merciless sky. “I would that you might tell me my proper penance, for I cannot bear this endless sorrow. You made me not with such strength to endure.”
The battlefield was silent; not even the buzzards lingered there.
There was nothing for Daeron in the Anfauglith, it was true: but it was the last place he had hoped to find something. In absence of meaning, of purpose, of comfort, he tore a strip of one of the banners of the Noldor, and told himself it had been the one Fingon had carried, and tucked the scrap into his pocket with the hair.
Where Daeron went when he drifted from Anfauglith none could say, for he vanished then into complete obscurity and the tales tell no more of the loremaster of Doriath and his silent flute, nor does his name cross the memorials of Fingon son of Fingolfin, the shortest-reigning of the high kings of the Noldor.
This has been said by another anon, but you honestly have the best interpretation of the events in the Silmarillion, especially with Elwing's situation which I super super love (I had to unfollow and block other good blogs because of how borderline misogynistic their takes were on her). I wanna know, what is your reaction to Finwe joining Feanor in exile “because of the love that he bore Feanor” which basically makes Tirion kingless, showing his favoritism and cementing Fingolfin as a 'usurper' to most, especially in the fandom? For me, that was the moment I saw how he made such stupid-ass decisions. Like I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt with being considered a 'good' father and king but no way is my response to my oldest son pulling a knife on my younger son at some kind of meeting and getting exiled with 'ah well I’m siding with your brother who almost stabbed you'. He sucks so bad like y'all chose this dumbass over Thingol????
I said:
You’re too kind, anon (^///^)
Finwe choosing to join Feanor is one of those things that I think was objectively the wrong choice, but I see how he got there. To me, it was one of Finwe’s deeply flawed moments, which makes him a real character and not just an idealized Fantasy Elf King. It’s also one of those moments where I would love to have more detail, because we get almost nothing on what Finwe’s relationship with his later four children was like. Silm virtually only addresses his relationship with Feanor, so I understand why a lot of fans interpret this to mean Finwe showed favoritism towards Feanor/preferred him to his other kids, and the narrative does tell us Finwe paid particular attention to Feanor (however, given their family history, I don’t think this is a huge surprise–he has a lot of reason to be worried about how Feanor will handle the family growing). The result though is that we get basically nothing about how Finwe and Fingolfin addressed the “Feanor pulls weapons on his brother in public” incident between them.
However–and maybe you will feel this is splitting hairs–I don’t think Finwe chooses to go into exile because he thinks Feanor was in the right, but because he believed the Valar’s punishment was unfair. He only has one quote on it:
“Feanor came indeed, for him alone Manwe had commanded to come; but Finwe came not, nor any of the others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwe: ‘While the ban lasts upon Feanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.’” (Of the Darkening of Valinor)
It’s not much, but it’s always suggested to me his issue was with the punishment imposed…and I find it hard to believe Tolkien held Finwe up intending him to be “good” and would then have him approve of one of his sons drawing a weapon on the other.
Furthermore, we know how highly Feanor values loyalty and how much he values Finwe’s attention, so Finwe would have to know what a significant gesture this would be to Feanor in the wake of his being publicly exposed as having been manipulated by Melkor, and exiled. There’s also the fact that Feanor’s behavior is increasingly erratic and extreme, which must be an additional concern.
By the other side of the coin though, he must also know how it will look to Fingolfin.
It’s true that at this time, Feanor and Fingolfin are both grown adults with families of their own. They aren’t little boys chasing after daddy, but clearly Finwe’s attention and affection still means something to him. And given Elves’ immortality, I’ve always found it easy to believe that Elven parents maintain a much stronger presence in their children’s esteem, simply because they never undergo the slow degradation of mind and body that mortal children expect to see in their parents as they age. But even setting that aside, it would be hard, I think, for Fingolfin not to be hurt by Finwe’s choice, even if he understands why it was made. If Fingolfin harbored no resentment about the choice, I’d say we should nominate him for sainthood.
We see that during Feanor’s “trial,” Fingolfin is already asserting a willingness to forgive him for what was done. I talked about that here, and why I don’t find “Fingolfin the usurper” a convincing take. It may be that Finwe and Fingolfin were not in disagreement that Finwe’s going with Feanor was best–it may be that even Fingolfin thought it was better to have Finwe there to try to constrain Feanor and make him see sense (This is what he was talking to Finwe about when Feanor originally bursts in with the sword) rather than leave him to fester in Formenos with only his sons, all of whom support him (In Morgoth’s Ring, even Nerdanel is not with him in Formenos, one of the few people he actually listened to; they’ve separated due to Feanor’s troubling recent behavior).
When it comes to fights between kids, parents are often reluctant to take sides. This can be true even where one child is obviously in the wrong, even repeatedly. There are any number of reasons Finwe didn’t want to see the rift between Feanor and Fingolfin as being that serious, not least of all because I’m sure he wanted them to get along and be brothers, and he loved both of them. When Melkor’s hand in Feanor’s unrest comes to light, this must have been deeply upsetting for Finwe. Thinking that his child had been targeted by Melkor and used by him to cause these problems among the Noldor would be alarming, and there would be a sense of violation there, probably especially for Feanor. Very possibly Finwe believes that the Valar are punishing Feanor for Melkor’s actions.
“Now the unrest of the Noldor was not indeed hidden from the Valar…Then at last the root was laid bare, and the malice of Melkor revealed; and straightway Tulkas left the council to lay hands upon him and bring him to judgement. But Feanor was not held guiltless, for he it was that had broken the peace of Valinor and drawn his sword upon his kinsman…” (Of the Silmarils)
I’ve said this a lot about the situation of the House of Finwe, but it was complicated. Do I think Finwe made the right choice in exiling himself with Feanor? No, not really. Do I see how he thought it was necessary or would cause less damage? Yeah, I do. People often don’t see clearly when it comes to their kids, and I think Finwe has probably always harbored a lot of concern over Feanor because of what happened with Miriel, and possibly guilt over the fact that Feanor never reconciled himself to Finwe’s remarriage or his additional children. He may feel that he needs to show this loyalty to Feanor to make up for the other things, or he may feel that leaving Feanor alone at this time will only make his mental condition worse.
Or he may just love Feanor more than his other kids. But I don’t prefer that explanation.
Finwe is a flawed person. I certainly think it’s possible to characterized him as a little selfish, and willfully blind to his children’s conflict, and the scale of Feanor’s dislike for his step-mother and her kids. But he’d hardly be the first parent to do that. I don’t think there was ever any malice in it, and I don’t generally take to interpretations that he openly and heavily favored Feanor over his other children. I think it may have felt that way to Indis’ kids at times (although I don’t think Feanor ever saw it that way, since he never seems to have managed to feel secure about anyone’s affection), but I don’t think Finwe genuinely loved Feanor more or wanted better things for him than the other kids. I think he was trying to balance Feanor’s huge and volatile feelings with his own desires, and then with Indis’ needs and the needs and desires of their children, and he probably was excessively concerned with Feanor’s feelings–but Feanor also has a way of demanding people pay attention to his feelings.
In conclusion: Yeah I think Finwe made a subpar choice there, but I don’t hate him or think he was awful (although perhaps something of an oblivious father). I think he wanted very much to believe that everything could be fine and good in Aman, so much so that he downplayed actual conflicts among the Noldor and particularly among his children, on the hope that everything would work itself out eventually (And who’s to say? If not for Melkor, maybe it would have.) And in the end, he pays for those choices with his life.
“What a trial motherhood was,” said Míriel in the understatement of several Ages, leaning back with a huff, so that she almost knocked Indis’ nose with the back of her head. “Not that you would know.”
I don't know why but it is honestly depressing how the book has to say something like 'Indis and her descendants committed great deeds and without them, the Eldar's legacy wouldn't live on' to justify her children's right to exist. I pity Indis and her descendants so much and the amount of psychic damage I get every time I go to Indis' tag is really a lot lol. If Tolkien didn't mention that and Miriel's love for Indis, I bet the hate for Indis and her children would be tenfold.
I said:
I don’t see the line so much as being a “justification” for their existence, either in-universe or out, but more of a way of ending the claim that “well everything would have been better if Finwe and Indis had never married.” The lines about Indis’ children are meant to highlight that negatives came from that marriage (Feanor’s reaction, the division of loyalties of the Noldor after Finwe’s death), there were also good things that came of it (Fingolfin’s courage in leading the Noldor in Beleriand, Finarfin’s willingness to turn back from the rebellion and lead the Noldor in Aman, all the way down to Earendil managing what no one else had–sailing back to the Blessed Realm).
It would be really easy to fixate on Finwe and Indis’ marriage (and some fans certainly do) as the “point” where everything went wrong. That moment where if only things had been different here, the rest of the story would have been happier. But Tolkien tells us here that isn’t so–that the story would in fact be lesser without the marriage of Finwe and Indis, and all that came of that union.
One of the things I love so much about The Silmarillion is that there IS no “one point” where everything “went wrong.” There’s no single one thing that could be changed to alter this story. He does such a fantastic job of weaving together many different threads so that it’s impossible to undo one knot and change the whole tale. Everything is tied together. It can be frustrating (good and bad) when you look at a tragedy and say “well if this one thing had been different, all of this could have been avoided.” But that isn’t the case with The Silmarillion. There’s no one off-ramp for everything that happened; there are too many things in motion.
As for Indis’ treatment in the fandom, as I understand from those who’ve been active in the Tolkien fandom far longer than I, it’s actually improved from where it was. However, I sympathize about going into her tags as I do with those for all female Silm characters…the psyche damage is real.
@welcomingdisaster has some great Indis-focused works (mainly Indis/Nerdanel) if you’re looking for some more positive Indis content \(￣︶￣*\))
I don't know how to word this correctly but I think it's just so easy for in-universe characters or fandom takes to take a shot at Finarfin's decision to turn back to the Valar and beg pardon not knowing the amount of strength and struggle you need to turn back against something you initially planned to do. Like committing to doing something but then backing out takes so much willpower and in no way does that make you a coward or spineless. I like to compare Finarfin's situation to mine where I chose not to push myself to continue this course and immediately drop the subject to avoid getting a failing remark on my record. I think that's why when I first learned of Finarfin's decision in the lore, the first thing that came to my mind wasn't 'oh what a coward/loser, he has no courage', It was like 'mood, same'.
But that's just me, what about you?
I said:
Oh, I definitely think Finarfin is incredibly courageous.
Finwe’s kids are all brave, but in different ways. Feanor and Fingolfin have what’s called in the book “high courage,” the kind of attitude that allows Fingolfin to say “yes, we can cross the Helcaraxe” and Feanor to say “yes I will charge this balrog in battle.” But Finarfin has a different kind–the kind required to say “I fucked up and I accept the consequences.”
Finarfin and the small number of followers who go with him are the only ones to truly own up to the First Kinslaying. He is the only one willing to return to the Valar and say “we did this horrible thing, we accept our punishment for it.” And as anyone who’s ever messed up and had to admit that to an authority figure knows, that’s really difficult. It’s difficult as a kid when you broke something mom told you not to play with, or as an adult when you caused a real problem at work–now imagine Finarfin whose people have committed unprovoked murder going to lay down his confession at the feet of effective gods.
Yes, the Valar forgive them and even allow Finarfin to take up his father’s crown, but that was by no means the logical outcome when he decided to go back. Finarfin had plenty of reason to think he would not be forgiven–but he went anyway, because he was convinced it was the right thing to do, and he was prepared to take whatever punishment the Valar set.
I love Fingolfin, but part of the reason he refused to go back was out of shame. He did not want to bear the shame of returning to Tirion as a murderer, as someone whose children were murderers, as someone who had gotten caught up in Feanor’s schemes and done terrible things to the Noldor’s friends and allies.
Furthermore, they feared to be punished for what they had done:
“…and all of Fingolfin’s folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Feanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless at the Kinslaying at Alqualonde.” ( “Of the Flight of the Noldor,”The Silmarillion)
Yet Finarfin was willing to bear these things, where his brothers were not.
And to your point–there’s value in knowing when to quit. I understand why we put a lot of weight and value on “never giving up,” but sometimes you’re just wasting more time and energy where it’s not going to do you any good. Sometimes it’s better to tactically retreat and try something new. There is wisdom in recognizing when it’s time for a different strategy or a new goal. This is something the Feanorians could have given a try, but instead they decided to be kings of the sunk-cost fallacy.
I’m glad you were able to back out of something that wasn’t working for you, and save yourself some trouble!
Anonymous said: After the juicy "Celebrimbor not talking to any of his family" take, you've hit us with another equally juicy (but probably controversial lol) take of Russingon which is something I've been riding for a while now, @spiritofwhitefire spoke nothing but facts. Still, on a serious note (no offense, I really love that ship so much) the constant characterization of Fingon as blindy forgiving, and always siding with Maedhros (or like being desperate to be with him) was probably what made me sour a bit on Russingon.
Fingon has other personalities and motivations besides being Maedhros' love interest or being his hype man but seriously, he's Fingolfin's son, and seeing how close and loyal Fingon was to Fingolfin, I am sure, he would be genuinely pissed at Maedhros. I can't imagine him instantly forgiving Mae or something, and even if he did, does his forgiveness mean something to Mae because, at the end of the day, Maedhros is still doggedly loyal to Feanor.
Anyway, this is just me being fixated on your tags, "not wanting maedhros to die a miserable death at morgoth's hands doesn't necessarily equate to total instant and complete forgiveness, "honestly a huge fan of their friendship never fully recovering..." please tell me more. I love your headcanons.
I said: I don’t mean to be in opposition to so many popular fandom takes 😅It’s not usually this bad…
Sure, maybe Fingon is a saint who harbors no resentment…but I’m not particularly interested in that take. #1, Fingon is presumably made a kinslayer in Alqualonde for the sake of the Feanorians, whom he believed were under unjust assault, but who were, in fact, the aggressors. #2, Although Maedhros does not partake in the burning of the ships at Losgar (something it’s implied Fingon learns eventually), neither did he make any effort to stop it, and that decision of the Feanorians’ helped condemn the rest of the Noldor host to the Helcaraxe, where, among other things, Fingon’s sister-in-law dies. I would say he certainly has grounds to be angry with Maedhros and furthermore, to distrust him going forward.
Not to say these specific things are entirely or even primarily Maedhros’ fault…but I think it would be very hard not to be angry with a cousin/close friend who had helped to put you in these positions, particularly depending on how Maedhros handles the situation after their reunion (i.e. whether he apologizes or doubles down or tries to pretend nothing is wrong).
Summary: Maglor, who earned her place in Mirkwood serving in defense of the realm, has a plan for alleviating the queen's stress, and naturally it involves a great many jewels.
Length: 5.6k
AN:Fill for this kink meme prompt for the Noldor and their jewelry kink. See AO3 or SWG for a bonus poem.
Maglor tilted her head to the left until the earring nearly lay flat against the side of her neck in the mirror. Then, she tilted her head to the right. Too much? She took the polished wood and rat-bone earrings out, then decided that was not enough, and put them back in. She scrutinized the kohl she had put around her eyes. She squinted at the necklaces layered onto her bare bosom. She felt her foot growing numb under her naked ass.
Anonymous said: I hope you don't mind me asking but I really want to know more about that Celebrimbor take (like the progression from his rebirth to trying to live in Valinor knowing his kin is there). I love it so much because it doesn't lean on the feanorian apologia, nor does it not lean so much on Celebrimbor forgiving or reconciling with them easily (especially his father), because from what I know, he was a lord of a city, so to be related to dudes who destroyed not one, not two but three cities must've to suck (but really impressive streak tho for the feanorians.) I also can't see Celebrimbor having a good relationship or having a good opinion of Curufin after Finrod's death and it would take him long (or literally never which I prefer lmao) to speak with him, after all, pride and arrogance ran in that family.
My answer:
I definitely don't mind! I love talking about Elfs :3
So I imagine Celebrimbor grows up pretty steeped in the Feanorian mindset, which means he's behind Feanor's rebellion (perhaps he has some reservations about the methodology but in principle I think he agrees); he partakes in the kinslaying at Alqualonde and the ship-burning at Losgar. But over the course of his time in Middle-earth he really puts a more critical lens on what he was raised to believe and what his family has done, and eventually comes out to the decision that he cannot adhere to his family's beliefs or support their actions anymore (spending time with Finrod helps a lot with this). And disowning his father and his family, as a noble, as someone in line for the crown of the Noldor, especially with the quasi-historical emphasis on the importance of family in Tolkien's work, is huge.
I think in the Second Age he was largely attempting both to distance himself from the worst of his family's legacy while trying to restore some measure of honor to them through his own actions. I love the imagery in HoME (I'm forgetting exactly where now) of Celebrimbor alone on the steps of his forge trying to resist Sauron after the "Annatar" disguise has been dropped.
I think he was understandably traumatized by everything that happened with Sauron and the rings of power, and I think that would make him even less tolerant of violence and power-grubbing after rebirth.
With this background, I pretty much see Celebrimbor going (although they wouldn't use such modern terminology for it) no-contact with his paternal family, with the possible exception of Grandma Nerdanel.
Generally, I don't think Celebrimbor is allowed to be re-embodied; I think he probably falls in with the rest of the Feanorians/Noldor who are prohibited from that, but assuming otherwise, that he is reborn, and that others of his paternal family are too, I just think there's not much to say there.
I think his hurt and anger and disappointment over their actions runs incredibly deep, and even if they are willing to apologize, I think he doesn't really want to hear it. The kind of "I appreciate your regret and I hope it helps the other people in your life, but it doesn't change my decision" kind of thing. I think he might view them as toxic; I think he might not want to associate with them; I think he might be concerned about the influence they could have on him; and honestly, I think he would want to see them make some significant efforts to redeem themselves before he cared to even consider allowing them into his life again.
I think at best he pities them (he's not devoid of sympathy; he bought into the rebellion of the Noldor too and he's guilty of kinslaying too, and he knows the pressure they felt because of the oath they'd sworn, but he also eventually realized they were wrong) and most likely considers them willful enactors of violence and bloodshed among their own kind for their own benefit. Celebrimbor died in agony at Sauron's hands to prevent more death and war resulting from his own mistakes; I can't imagine he has a lot of understanding for violence undertaken to protect the perpetrator.
I don't think it's impossible for him to reconcile with his uncles/father/grandfather but I think it would take a very long time (if he was mortal, I would say never), and I don't think those relationships would ever be the same again.
Summary: All is not as it seems when Thranduil enters the ancestral Feanorian estate, but he fails to fully comprehend the scale and nature of the risk. If he's very lucky, one day he might even get to leave.
OR: Marrying into the House of Feanor comes with the skeletons in the closet.
The Noldor had a saying, that a craft object remembered the hand of its builder. This was said often about homes, which were no less a craft than anything else the Noldor built. Indis had found it a charming saying in her earlier sojourns into Tirion—the thought of a building holding its own care and memory for the hands that had brought it to being—but it was slightly less endearing to see it from this angle.
Characters: Maedhros, Thingol (Minor appearances by Daeron, Melian, and Luthien)
Summary: Maedhros presents himself as a...diplomatic guest to Doriath, certain he can convince the king to do as Maedhros wishes him to if he only had the chance. It is possible Maedhros is less than prepared for Doriath than he expected.
Length: 18k
AN: A new year's gift for @jouissants! I hope the new year treats you and your family well! (´▽`ʃ♡ƪ)
It had seemed like such a brilliant idea when he’d first had it. Maedhros should have been tipped off to the potentially subpar nature of the idea by the fact that it occurred between one and five in the morning, after a particularly strenuous week of dealing with his brothers’ appalling and sometimes shocking lack of diplomacy.
Response to this ask about Maedhros and the impact on him of the Nirnaeth.
The Nirnaeth feels like a turning point, for the Noldor in Middle-earth. A number of things went wrong, among them that Tolkien tells us Maedhros revealed his strength too soon to Melkor. There were so many moments it seemed like they could pull this off, or at least cause some real damage to Melkor, but there were just so many things that worked against them, not least of all the betrayals Melkor sowed among the Noldor’s allies and the fact that the Feanorians had alienated major Elvish allies in Middle-earth (Doriath, Nargothrond) which could have made a real difference in the fight.
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